Part 4: Web advertising, cross-selling and world domination

Do you foresee a time when Web advertising will work?
No.

Do you see an aspect it would need to be successful?
No, I think marketing works well on the Web, but not advertising. There's a big difference. Advertising is one particular jewel in the marketing arsenal and in traditional media it's a very powerful tool. For interactive media it's a very weak tool, you have to do things that are more one and one and more relationship oriented marketing tools. The plain advertising, "I'm going to show you this," doesn't work very well in interactive because interactive is user driven. And so, marketing on the Web has to be oriented toward satisfying the user, as opposed to showing him something.

Or telling him what he needs?
Yes, and so for example one very old-fashioned marketing technique that works well for the Web is the cross-selling and up-selling idea. It works in that while users are looking at some product, you can tell them, "If you buy this product, you might actually want to get this too."

Like my Amazon list that tells me other books I might want?
Exactly, and that is wonderful. So it depends on what your definition is of the word, I would not call it advertising. I would call it marketing.

Because you're providing some insight or knowledge to the user, you're being helpful to the user?
Yes, if the user looks at it as a benefit, then they will use it and they will not think of it as being intrusive. In fact, they will return to the website and buy something else. And that by the way, is a very interesting and telltale sign of a bad website. You can tell the difference between good or bad websites in how they do cross-selling. A bad website will say, "We have X inventory of this doll this month, so let's put on every web page in big colors, "Why don't you buy this doll." And that is not cross-selling.

Cross-selling is understanding the customers' needs and advising them on something that might be useful for them specifically. It has to be one on one. It cannot be, "I want to promote this to all the people on the website." You can have promotion on the website; it just should not be something that is a part of every user navigation. It needs to be set up so it's something they go into if they choose to because everybody likes to get a good deal or a special promotion. If your goal is to understand the user's mind and behavior, in every moment he or she is on your site, it will improve your website.

Did you ever envision the kind of impact you would have on the Web?
Well, not really. It's actually just been my life's work. When I was in grad school in the eighties, my goal was just to make life easier. The stuff we worked on had very little market, but the tools and methods I developed in those times are now some of the most critical drivers for business success in the new economy. Now whether or not this is because in the early eighties, I was kind of smart and started working on things that would be really important, I couldn't claim that.

You just worked on what you found to be exciting?
Yes, I just always liked the notion of making the world easier for humans and I found it exciting to work on interactive information as opposed to what most people were working on in the eighties. It was the thing I personally liked to work on. It wasn't some scheme for world domination.

You don't have a scheme for world domination?
Ha. Actually Nettie, I do. That's why we do the world tour. I want the entire world to really base their projects on the usability principles because I think that is the way to success. As a double side to it, is a way to make the world safe for humans and a much more happy place as opposed to a depressing place, and the other side of the coin, that is the way to business success.

So I would say, yes, it's probably true that I'm getting more influence on the industry, but it's because what I say works. I'm the purveyor of the truth. I try to be the little boy who saw that the emperor had no clothes. I will dare to say the truth.

I say advertising doesn't work very well on the Web, despite it being a billion dollar business. Most other people have to say, "Oh advertising does work, just keep giving us more money." I will just say what is the truth, what is the best analysis based on the data. So ultimately whatever influence I have comes from the underlying notion of being fearlessly an advocate of the truth and humanity.

Finally, can you tell us a couple known sites that work? I know you've mentioned Amazon but do you have some other ones too, that follow your guidelines and that you're really happy with?
Yes, and the interesting thing about that is there's a very high correlation between the size of a website and how much they follow my guidelines. It's not because first they get big and then they follow my guidelines, it is that first they do what users want and users need and then people keep coming back. They actually have a pleasant experience. So they keep coming back. So therefore, it is in fact true that the biggest famous websites are ones that are most in compliance with my guidelines.

In terms of e-commerce, I'll particularly quantify this because we just wrote up all the guidelines for e-commerce usability. We used over 200 guidelines and checked the websites to see who followed them. Amazon really followed them the most and they actually scored the highest, 72%.

On the other hand, I would always say that in reality I don't expect anybody to ever follow 100% of the guidelines. In any given website, there is always a reason why a few of the things don't apply, so I would say 90% of the guidelines would be a good goal. So when we looked at the best-selling websites on average they were at a little over 50% and they do about half the things right at this time.

And are all those sites aware of your usability concepts?
Well, it's hard to say. I know for a fact at Amazon they are because he's basically given a copy of my book to everyone that does their website. And in any case, I do know that the ones who I have not personally advised, a lot of the big ones I know are aware of the book. When we look at the less selling websites, they only follow about one-third of the guidelines, and when we look at those compared to the best selling who follow over half, there is really a big difference in successful selling.

So I would still say the best-selling websites could improve dramatically. I would say even the best websites have a low level of usability but there are still two reasons why they work. One is that their competitors are incredibly bad, so even a mediocre website will shine. So a website that does half the things right, that's a good website these days. The second reason is that people have an incredible amount of stamina and they will keep at it if there's something they really want. But I would caution companies not to depend on that for too long, because in the future with the competition people will find it easier to get something somewhere else.

On that final note, thanks so much Dr. Nielsen, it was a thrill.